WDTV Live and "blu-ray"

[Odaik]

Hello,

I remember seeing a thread about this previously, but unfortunately I cannot find it - so apologies for repeating the question here.

If I were to purchase a blu-ray film, and manage to rip the video and audio streams (not the entire disc image) would the WDTV live be able to play the Dolby TrueHD audio? From what I understand, some Blu-ray films do not come with any other type of audio stream (so I couldn’t for example, rip the easy to play AC3 stream instead).

I think I read here that although the entire DD True HD track would not be played, it would be possible to play only the “core” bitstream and therefore still get DVD quality audio out of it? Or would I still have to transcode any HD audio streams if I want to play them on the WDTV?

Also, would the WDTV support the format of the blu-ray film subtitiles?

Thanks,

Odai.

[mkelley]

True-HD can not be played by the WDTV per se – what happens is that it CAN be passed to a receiver that can decode it properly IF you use an M2TS container and you set the output to “digital”.  If set to “stereo” then the core AC3 track will be played, or if it is in any container then the core only will be passed.

All Blu-rays come with at least an AC3 track (even if it’s embedded in the True-HD) because that’s a spec for it.  MOST come with a separate AC3 track, but even if they don’t programs that “pass through” the True-HD track (like Handbrake) don’t passthrough the entire track but only the AC3 core of it anyway (because they output to either an MKV or MP4 container).

The Live does not support blu-ray PGS subs – they need to be converted (easy to do with tools like BDSup2Sub and then remuxed back in with mkvmerge, for example).

[Odaik]

Many thanks for your informative reply.

So assuming all I have is a TV and the WDTV player, with no fancy home cinema setup+receiver; the player will recognise and play the AC3 core of the HD stream, but only if it is in a .m2ts container? I’m assuming it doesn’t matter whatsoever

That shouldn’t be a problem, except for the fact that I’ve had issues when muxing subtitles into .m2ts files. With mkv’s, it works fine, but when I try to view subtitles that have been muxed into .m2ts files using tsmuxer, they do not display. I’ve been told before that .m2ts files are not designed for multiple subtitle streams. Is there any way around this?

I understand that handbrake can extract only the AC3 core of the stream so that I can just use mkv’s instead, but this would not be ideal for me. I would prefer to have files stored on my network that have the full stream, as I do have setups which can take advantage of the full DD TrueHD stream.

I’d appreciate any advice!

[mkelley]

Maybe I wasn’t clear – you can have a True-HD stream in an mkv file but the Live won’t decode it as 5.1 surround – AFAIK it will only play it as stereo (since it’s playing the core AC3 track) and only when the output is set to “stereo”.

I haven’t tried this in practice since I always use mkv files produced by Handbrake (which, as noted, don’t have the entire True-HD track).  But it would be easy to test – do you not already have a Live?  Or is this a question before buying?  If you don’t have one I’d be glad to test it for you.  Otherwise, just load up one of your mkv files and see if you hear anything.

I understand your preference for keeping the entire stream, but since the majority of blu-rays use DTS-HD for me it’s a non-issue (since that will *never* be allowed to be passed through by any media player).  I’d just rather keep to one standard (the mkv file).

[Odaik]

Just so I can make sure I understand, selecting “stereo” as the output on the WDTV means the player will decode and stream the audio straight to the TV’s speaker system, whereas “Digital” will pass the audio stream straight to the external receiver?

If this is correct; then assuming I select “stereo”, I will indeed be able to play mkv files that contain the full TrueHD audio stream, and hear the core AC3 audio? If this is the case, then there won’t be a problem as I can just extract the streams I want and mux them into an MKV container which has no issues with my subtitles. So what is it exactly I can only do with .m2ts files?

And just to be sure, in case I decide to upgrade in the future, the WDTV will passthrough the entire TrueHD stream to an external receiver?

Sorry for being such a pain, but is it the exact same situation with the DTS equivalents? That is the player can decode the DTS core of the DTS-HD-MA stream, and passthrough the entire stream to an external receiver?

I have to say I really appreciate your timely and very informative responses, thanks!

[mkelley]

The only container the Live can pass through True-HD (to be decoded in 5.1) is the M2TS container.  No other container, regardless of whether it contains the True-HD stream or not, can have the HD stream passed through.  So if you are concerned about using the Live along with a receiver that can decode True-HD then you need to have all your files in M2TS containers.

The Live *should* correctly play the AC3 stream in a mkv file with True-HD in it (when set to “stereo”).  I say “should” because I’ve never done it (due to the way I construct my files).  But you can test it (assuming you have a Live) – if you don’t hear anything then it doesn’t work .  I suppose I could mux a test file if you don’t have a Live (assuming I can find one of my blu-rays that has True-HD – most are put in my attic and most blu-rays don’t have True-HD, so of the ones I haven’t put away yet I might not be able to find such a track).

No player on the market can pass through the DTS-HD stream – the DTS folks do not want this and therefore it won’t happen.  So there’s little or no point in trying to mux a file with a DTS-HD stream.  If you do, all you’ll get is the DTS core equivilent (with all the overhead of the DTS-HD).  (For this reason alone I have standardized my audio to be just either the AC3 or the DTS core – that and my old ears really can’t hear any difference even on my fancy 7.2 surround sound system).

[Odaik]

The only container the Live can pass through True-HD (to be decoded in 5.1) is the M2TS container.  No other container, regardless of whether it contains the True-HD stream or not, can have the HD stream passed through.  So if you are concerned about using the Live along with a receiver that can decode True-HD then you need to have all your files in M2TS containers.

I see what you mean now. So if I had the stream in an mkv, the WDTV would, theoretically, only be able to decode/output the core AC3 and not passthrough the HD stream to an external receiver? I’m assuming I wouldn’t run into any problems though if I want to play it on, say, a PC equipped with a TrueHD enabled soundcard as it wouldn’t count as a “passthrough”?

The Live *should* correctly play the AC3 stream in a mkv file with True-HD in it (when set to “stereo”).  I say “should” because I’ve never done it (due to the way I construct my files).  But you can test it (assuming you have a Live) – if you don’t hear anything then it doesn’t work .  I suppose I could mux a test file if you don’t have a Live (assuming I can find one of my blu-rays that has True-HD – most are put in my attic and most blu-rays don’t have True-HD, so of the ones I haven’t put away yet I might not be able to find such a track).

Apologies, I do have a WDTV but I have no HD audio media whatsoever. I am planning on some sort of new setup which is why I’m asking for advice. It would be really great if you could try it for me as you suggested. :smileyvery-happy:

No player on the market can pass through the DTS-HD stream – the DTS folks do not want this and therefore it won’t happen.  So there’s little or no point in trying to mux a file with a DTS-HD stream.  If you do, all you’ll get is the DTS core equivilent (with all the overhead of the DTS-HD).  (For this reason alone I have standardized my audio to be just either the AC3 or the DTS core – that and my old ears really can’t hear any difference even on my fancy 7.2 surround sound system).

So it’s the exact same situation as with the Dolby formats, except you cannot passthrough the whole HD stream to some capable receiver no matter what container you use? I guess that’s not too bad assuming you can still get the DTS core on the WDTV with the “stereo” option.

[Cocovanna]

mkelley wrote:

True-HD can not be played by the WDTV per se – what happens is that it CAN be passed to a receiver that can decode it properly IF you use an M2TS container and you set the output to “digital”.  If set to “stereo” then the core AC3 track will be played, or if it is in any container then the core only will be passed.

I have not been able to get  this core stereo AC3 track through in any way. Completely silence at both HDMI and stereo outputs with True HD tracks, no matter what settings I use.

The core extracts without problems using Handbrake, though.

Cocovanna

[Cocovanna]

mkelley wrote:

The Live does not support blu-ray PGS subs – they need to be converted (easy to do with tools like BDSup2Sub and then remuxed back in with mkvmerge, for example).

?? I see these perfectly well with the last released version? The previous release won’t show them, though.

Cocovanna

[mkelley]

Cocovanna wrote:

---

mkelley wrote:

The Live does not support blu-ray PGS subs – they need to be converted (easy to do with tools like BDSup2Sub and then remuxed back in with mkvmerge, for example).

---

?? I see these perfectly well with the last released version? The previous release won’t show them, though.

 

Cocovanna

You see these how?  In what container are you playing them?

I didn’t look to see what changes in the firmware were made vis a vis subs – I guess it’s *possible* that PGS support was added but I’m skeptical.

[Cocovanna]

I saw them without any problems in my first days with the Live, where I played directly from ISO files and direct rips(both DVD and blu-ray). I must admit, that I am a little unsure now, whether I have seen them when playing a m2ts file directly, but I am almost ready to bet on it. I tried a LOT of things with blu-rays in the beginning, because I couldn’t get any sound from the HD track (which were the only usable track on my first BD), and I noticed then (among other things) that the subs were “untitled”, but present and worked without problems when I first found out it was #12 that were danish

I’ll try playing a “loose” m2ts file directly and let you know if it works

Cocovanna

[mkelley]

You wouldn’t see them on DVDs – they are strictly a blu-ray format (you could see a lot of other sub title types, though).

I’ll play as well when I get a chance.

[Cocovanna]

I know … it is the blu-ray subs I mentioned as visible and working in the first post (the DVD ones play in previous firmware too, blu-rays don’t).

Cocovanna

[Cocovanna]

Cocovanna wrote:

I’ll try playing a “loose” m2ts file directly and let you know if it works

m2ts subs plays fine – better than when embedded in an MKV file (i.e… shadows are included )

Cocovanna

[mkelley]

Actually, you *can’t* embed a PGS sub in an mkv file – at least mkvmerge doesn’t support it – so that’s definitely out.  I haven’t tried an M2TS file, but I’m pretty sure the last official release doesn’t support it and I’m not going to try the beta yet.

[Cocovanna]

No, but I mean after embedding the converted sub – they look a lot a like the original if keeping the converted subs separate from the mkv (then no shadows missing), but I know the blu-ray format has more features.

Cocovanna

[Cocovanna]

mkelley wrote:

but I’m pretty sure the last official release doesn’t support it

I does.

Cocovanna

[Odaik]

Sorry to pester you again, but have you had a chance at all to test those HD tracks/respond to my last post at all?

[mkelley]

If you’re talking to me you need to ask again what you wanted – Cocovanna jumped in the middle and now I’m lost as to what it was you were asking.

[Odaik]

No probs, this was my post:

Odaik wrote:

 

The only container the Live can pass through True-HD (to be decoded in 5.1) is the M2TS container.  No other container, regardless of whether it contains the True-HD stream or not, can have the HD stream passed through.  So if you are concerned about using the Live along with a receiver that can decode True-HD then you need to have all your files in M2TS containers.

 

I see what you mean now. So if I had the stream in an mkv, the WDTV would, theoretically, only be able to decode/output the core AC3 and not passthrough the HD stream to an external receiver? I’m assuming I wouldn’t run into any problems though if I want to play it on, say, a PC equipped with a TrueHD enabled soundcard as it wouldn’t count as a “passthrough”?

 

The Live *should* correctly play the AC3 stream in a mkv file with True-HD in it (when set to “stereo”).  I say “should” because I’ve never done it (due to the way I construct my files).  But you can test it (assuming you have a Live) – if you don’t hear anything then it doesn’t work .  I suppose I could mux a test file if you don’t have a Live (assuming I can find one of my blu-rays that has True-HD – most are put in my attic and most blu-rays don’t have True-HD, so of the ones I haven’t put away yet I might not be able to find such a track).

 

Apologies, I do have a WDTV but I have no HD audio media whatsoever. I am planning on some sort of new setup which is why I’m asking for advice. It would be really great if you could try it for me as you suggested.

 

No player on the market can pass through the DTS-HD stream – the DTS folks do not want this and therefore it won’t happen.  So there’s little or no point in trying to mux a file with a DTS-HD stream.  If you do, all you’ll get is the DTS core equivilent (with all the overhead of the DTS-HD).  (For this reason alone I have standardized my audio to be just either the AC3 or the DTS core – that and my old ears really can’t hear any difference even on my fancy 7.2 surround sound system).

 

So it’s the exact same situation as with the Dolby formats, except you cannot passthrough the whole HD stream to some capable receiver no matter what container you use? I guess that’s not too bad assuming you can still get the DTS core on the WDTV with the “stereo” option.