Seagate 3tb hard drive not recognized

[RoofingGuy]

Just out of curiousity… you don’t have to, but I’m kinda interested in the results…

What would happen if you re-formatted the drive to one 3TB partition, using 32k allocation units (because we know that formatting is allowed, and that would leave tons of space in the partition table), and then take that partition, once the quick format is done, and split it into two halves of ~1.5TB each, and then try to re-format each of those with 1k allocation units?

It should work mathematically, but whether Windoze will let you is another matter altogether, and whether it would be readable from the WDTV is also another matter altogether, but it might be worth a shot…  worst thing that happens is you know you’re back to trying to network it, and you’re out a bit of time… but on the other hand, it might end up solving your issues.

[tedtd]

No problem - I’ve got a 3TB lump of rock at the moment, so any other ideas you have - fire away!

This one doesn’t get off the ground though, unfortunately.

Starting from the 2.7TB (the rest must be reserved for the Seagate format program and other bits and pieces that have survived the 2000 or so formats I’ve carried out on this infernal drive) Seagate formatted drive (it reads 2794GB NTFS Healthy (Primary Position) -

I then tried formatting (32k and 64k) and all works well.

The only options available thereafter are ‘shrink’, ‘extend’ or ‘delete’ volume. Delete is obvious. Extend allows 9MB extra to be tacked on, for whatever reason. ‘Shrink’ carries out some calculation and invariably arrives at a just short of 1.4TB partition, so I accept that. The problem is, Windows leaves 650GB in the next bank, and a further 750GB in a bank to the right of that. (So, graphically, from left to right, the drive is now three partitions, of 1.4TB Healthy etc, 650GB Unallocated and 746.52 Unallocated.

Right-clicking on the third bank only gives ‘properties’ and ‘help’. Same right-click on bank 2 gives ‘New Simple Volume’ as well as ‘properties’ and ‘help’. So, from there, I can format that remaining 650GB and I end up with two partitions and the third, 750GB, Unallocated. It remains in that state after formatting bay 2.

So, to conclude, I can try formatting at various cluster sizes but Windows won’t permit me to partition the 2.7TB up evenly. As I wrote earlier, WD TV Live accepts the two partitions through one USB connection but I can’t get the thing to total more than 2TB in any case.

Thanks for your attention, attempts to assist and interest anyway, RoofingGuy; they are much appreciated.

[RoofingGuy]

Well, since I’ve been taking stabs in the dark here anyways, I’m going to guess what’s going on…

I’m betting Windoze won’t let the total space go beyond 2TB, just in case you re-format the partitions with 512 byte allocation units at a later date.  I’m guessing that that’s why you always end up with the 750 or so that Windows will never let you do anything with.  Because if you did format all the other space (in any number of partitions) later on with 512’s, then you’d fill the partition table and that 750 would go missing anyways.  So Windows seems to end up “protecting it” from getting lost later.

That at least seems plausible based on what you’re seeing.

So the only question left is can it be done with other partitioning/formatting utilities, or do they have the same safeguards built-in?

[tedtd]

Partition ‘Wizard’ - doesn’t even recognise the drive’s existence!

Acronis Disk Director - INTERESTING! Has recognised the drive as two chunks of 1.37TB (well, two separate drives), despite it being in its current 3-block setup. I only downloaded the trial version so I can’t format it but it has definitely pooled the remaining two chunks into one.

I might as well buy the program and give it a whirl…

[RoofingGuy]

Well, another thought occurred to me… any program running under Windows might have the same Windows limitations.

So then I had an interesting/scary thought: what about using GParted under Linux to resize/manage the NTFS partition(s)?

I’m not a Linux person… I have used the SystemRescueCD to salvage data off a dead HD that Windows wouldn’t touch with a ten-foot pole, and while I was poking around trying to figure Linux out and figure out how to copy the files off the dead drive, the GUI for GParted that was on the SystemRescueCD seemed rather straight-forward and simple.  On the other hand, you might not have any better luck with it either.

[tedtd]

Well sir, I now have a partitioned (1.37TB each volume, x2) running successfully on my WD TV Live.

Huzzah! Thanks for your comments and advice - they have been really helpful.

I actually did this before reading your Linux suggestion - and it’s a good job, as I would have given up at that point

I paid for the full licence key for Acronis DD 11 and found, to my horror, that although it created the separate volume, it wuldn’t format it.

However, as the first partition was already up and running, and the second volume was now ‘seen’ in my computer, I did the windows quick format on it, at 4096 bytes, and it worked. For future reference, under the Disk Management control centre, the second partition is coloured light-blue and noted as being a ‘logical drive’.

For those who may want to try this at home, it’s possible that Acronis got the drive to the feeble state that Windows format rescued it from in the trial version, so buying the full program may not even be necessary.

For the record, Partition Wizard doesn’t acknowledge the volumes still, but re-connecting to my computer brought up autoplay options for each volume in succession.

So, thanks again, RoofingGuy; kudos headed your way

As for WD, I think they’re being a bit naughty about this - apparently, from January 2011, the industry standard for Hard Disks will be to be manufactured with the 4096 byte clusters as standard. They must know about this but have said nothing thus far, when they will soon be faced with a player that will not be compatible with newly-manufactured HDD’s.

Admittedly I am a tad bitter over the runaround and hoops I’ve had to jump through to get to this point, and I don’t know if these factors are even relevant for HDD’s of less than 2TB size but even so, I imagine the near future needs an improvement by WD in this area with their TV player series…

[RoofingGuy]

Well, I’m glad it’s working for you, but don’t forget that the sector sizes on the disc aren’t the same as the “allocation units” that Windows uses for a format.

As far as I know, whether you choose 512 or 1k or 4k or … 32k, the drives always have been using 512-byte sectors to store the data – Windows just uses several disc sectors for each allocation unit.  Formatting a drive with 4k allocation sectors just uses 8 physical sectors of the disc for each “block” of data.

But yes, presumably if drives themselves start showing up with 4k physical sectors, it won’t be possible to format them with allocation units smaller than 4k, which, as we’ve seen, is a problem with these devices.  At least now, (most) drives can be re-formatted so that the WDTV doesn’t run away crying and hide in a corner.

But it’s not just the WDTVs… DVRs and game consoles and things like that have also needed some externals to be re-formatted to be recognized and usable – so, presumably they’ll all be affected by the 4k sector issue if none of them like 4k allocation units.

That’s a huge issue on both sides of the industry.

But, glad your drive is playing nicely, even if there were a whole string of hoops to jump through.

EDIT:

Although now I’m a little confused.  If the WDTV Live doesn’t have a 2TB limitation like the Gen1 WDTV HD does, then why was it not usable with 4k allocation units as a 3TB drive, but it is usable with 4k units as two 1.5GB partitions?  Because with other smaller drives, the allocation units semed to be the problem – formatting down to 512 made them readable.  So it seems as if the 4k units on the two 1.5s you created should still be unreadable by the WDTV.

Oh well… I guess the "why"s are far less important to you… you’ve got it working and that’s all that matters. :smileyvery-happy:

Just wish I knew why it was working so I’d have better answers for other drive problems, instead of “try this… ok, now try this…”

[tedtd]

Well, solving by inspection (I think), I have a 1TB portable WD HDD that, on running chkdsk, tells me that it is formatted in 4096 byte file allocation units. That works perfectly well with the player.

So the issue appears to be - once 2TB is exceeded AND file allocation is > 512 bytes = sadness for drive owner!

I should have persevered with my testing a little while longer but I’ve already excitedly begun transferring over my files to the partitioned drive. I should have tried creating one partition as per your original plan, using that Acronis program.

However, while I’ll check it out, I think I’ll just leave the long process of copying my info back continuing and let WD do the remainder of the research lol.

A temporary compromise for the incompatibility issue might be for the HDD manufacturer to add a partitioning tool onto the rubbish that they usually send out with their HDD’s.

Just to finish, I do get your point about the big incompatibility problems with all kinds of media players and games consoles etc - I just think that, as a dedicated media player, the issue requiring resolving is far more urgent for the likes of WD.

They know that all of their HDD’s will be using the larger file allocation structure from Jan 11 onwards and they need their players to be compatible. Obviously, it’s only 'cos I own the WD player that my ire happens to be directed at them, rather than Xtreamer or whoever else is competing with them at the moment.

If I’m still understanding the file allocation/sector thing wrong as you mentioned previously, (I must try formatting some old drive with 512 byte allocation and see if chkdsk reports the same) then it would seem, more simply, that the WD TV is simply not compatible with >2TB HDD’s at the moment after all!

Actually, the penny is starting to finally drop (a little!) - do you know of a way to check what the physical sector format of a HDD is? From reading your previous comments I think the chkdsk utility isn’t much of a help in that regard.

Right-click and ‘properties’ doesn’t yield any useful info in that regard either. If you know how to, I can check my own and a few other HDD’s to see how the format and physical sectors read, which might help with understanding this situation a little better.

[varunaX]

hey ted, can you help me understand your solution a bit better?  i am having the exact same prob with my 3tb usb drive.  i can see one 2048 gb partition and 746.52 of unallocated space that when right click i have no options.

i tried downloading the acronis trial and when i try to create a new volume for that allocated space i get an error. 

im not the most computer savvy, so any suggestions you could give me would be great.  thanks

[Techflaws]

Cocovanna wrote:

You mean the Live can use BOTH partitions at a single drive – with standard firmware ???

Actually even the 1st gen WD can do this, also with mixed partitions NTFS/FAT32.

varunaX wrote:

can you help me understand your solution a bit better?

To understand the issues I suggest to read this.

[tedtd]

varunaX wrote:

hey ted, can you help me understand your solution a bit better?  i am having the exact same prob with my 3tb usb drive.  i can see one 2048 gb partition and 746.52 of unallocated space that when right click i have no options.

 

i tried downloading the acronis trial and when i try to create a new volume for that allocated space i get an error. 

 

im not the most computer savvy, so any suggestions you could give me would be great.  thanks

Hi varunaX

Before we begin (!) - although you say that Acronis won’t create that volume, three questions:

a) Check through ‘My Computer’ - is the second volume listed as a hard drive with a letter?

b) Is your ‘working’ partition 1.37TB or is it circa 2TB?

c) What’s your OS? Mine’s Vista 32-bit home.

If state (a) from above is what you’ve got, then just use Windows Disk Management to format that volume. If it isn’t, then either you will need the full version of Acronis after all (I did buy the licence but wasn’t sure exactly what was achieved using the trial version beforehand - from your predicament I suspect not much) or your first volume is too large.

To start afresh, here’s what I did:

1. • Delete the main volume you have using the Windows Disk Management controls
2. • (Assuming you have a Seagate STAC 3000200 GoFlex) the built-in Seagate software will ask if you want to format the disk - select ‘yes’
3. • Using the Windows Disk Management tool, right-click ‘shrink volume’. It should allow you to create two volumes of approx 1.37TB each. Accept this choice
4. • Format the 1.37TB volume
5. • Using Acronis, you should see two volumes now, each of 1.37TB. Try formatting the second volume at this point
6. • Check ‘My Computer’ and see if you have two new volumes. If you don’t, then you will definitely have to buy the Acronis licence. Nb - there may be other partition tools available that might accomplish this for free. Partition Wizard is not one of them
7. • Even at this stage, Acronis wouldn’t format the second volume for me. As it was recognised as a drive (unformatted) under Windows, I just formatted it as before.

Let me know if you’re still having problems after all of this. I’m going mainly off memory here but I’ll go through the process again for real if you are in a hole still at the end of trying to sort this out.

[Bill_S]

@ tedtd

Quick question, how is your C:\ drive partitioned?  Are you using MBR or GPT?  If your system drive is partitioned as MBR, it won’t matter whether you are using Vista or 7, you won’t be able to format a 3 TB drive as 3TB’s.  Now, that’s as I understand it. 

[Guy_K]

Here are my current test results (please note that this information is preliminary and that I offer it only because it may be useful to those who already own these devices and are trying to make them work):

Windows XP actually lets you format 4k sector drives as MBR with a single 3TB partition. If you use Vista or 7, however, the only way to create a single 3TB partition is to use GPT.

WD My Book Essential 3TB:

If you use WD’s Quick Formatter tool to format the drive, it’ll work with the WDTV Live, Live Plus, and Live Hub regardless of OS or logical sector size. However, if you have it running in 4k sector mode and you use Vista or 7’s built-in drive formatting tools to convert the drive to GPT and format it, it will not work with WDTVs.

Seagate 3TB Goflex drive:

This drive appears to always be in 4k sector mode. If you format it in Windows XP as MBR with a 3TB partition, it will not initially work with the WDTV. However, if you connect it to a WDTV Live Hub (I have yet to test this workaround with a Live or Live Plus), then connect it to a PC and run chkdsk /f on it, it will work with the WDTV. Oddly enough, Seagate’s own software sees the 3TB drive as a 750GB drive.

[Cerebrob24]

Guy_K, could you provide a link to the WD’s Quick Formatter tool, please and thank you? Also, will formating with this tool allow Windows to see the entire 2.72TB in one partition?

[Ardvark]

I think this is what he is talking about:

http://wdc.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wdc.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=3868

[Guy_K]

Ardvark wrote:

I think this is what he is talking about:

 

http://wdc.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wdc.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=3868

Thanks. The answer is yes, if you use that tool, Windows should be able to see the entire drive in one partition.

[Rodiblemac]

Mr. K. I thought that 512 bytes format type was by default for windows Xp and 4k is by default performed by Windows Vista and 7. And this format for 4k must be done in windows xp with Advance Format Utility.

Let me know please

[Guy_K]

The OS has no control over what sector size the hard drive uses. The only way to switch back and forth is with a utility that can tell the drive what sector size to use. Using 4k sectors is the only way to create partitions greater than 2TB in XP.

For the 3TB drive, you need to use the Quick Formatter. I don’t think the Advanced Format Utility handles 3TB drives correctly. I’ll look into it to find out for sure.

[Rodiblemac]

Guy_K wrote:

if it’s formatted for use with Windows XP, it’ll have 4k logical sectors.

If it’s formatted for Vista or Win 7 and has 512 byte logical sectors.

---

Please answer the original question.

Mr. K. I thought that 512 bytes format type was by default for windows Xp and 4k is by default performed by Windows Vista and 7?

Also, you say that WD Advanced Format Utility does NOT handle 3TB drives correctly. Then why is this drive WD30EZRSDTL listed with the ADV format if it’s unable to handle it?

[Guy_K]

I might be wrong regarding the Advanced Format Utility. Like I said earlier, drives are not my area of expertise. I am asking people who do know more than me to get a proper answer to that particular question.

Regarding sector size vs OS: I’m by no means an authority on the issue, but I’ll try to explain to the best of my knowledge. It’s complicated. XP doesn’t normally handle 4k sector sizes very well. XP creates partitions that are misaligned with 4k sectors, so you end up with poor performance. However, the drive can be adjusted to compensate for this. I think that’s what the Advanced Format Utility is for. However, Vista and 7 have no such issues. They can handle both 512 byte sectors and 4k sectors just fine. The reason that the Quick Formatter tool sets the drive to 4k sectors for XP compatibility is that this is the only way to get XP to see partitions greater than 2TB. There isn’t a “default” sector size for drives for the different OSes. This particular tool sets up the drive in a particular way to work around a compatibility issue.