If a HDD sounds like a printer or a floppy drive from the 80s, is it dying?

The OP wrote …

Why WD Gold and not a WD Black? I looked at some newer models to buy yesterday, but I only found a “WD Gold 1TB 7200rpm 128MB” (WD1005FBYZ) at my favorite computer store.

That was the question I was responding to.

As for WD/HGST labelling, I understand it very well. I have written tools to parse the ROMs of these drives and extract their firmware modules. You understand only what you read in marketing literature, and that’s essentially useless. I suggest you read some of the threads at HDD Guru. That’s where the knowledgeable people hang out. You may actually learn something.

As for my links, the drive at Tom’s Hardware bears a HGST WWN.

The drive in WD’s store bears a HGST model number (“OFnnnn”).

Clearly you don’t understand what you are talking about. Come to HDD Guru and be educated.

Personally, I would recommend that the OP purchase a native HGST model rather than a native WD. The former are generally more reliable.

This all reminds me of Corsair RAM modules using different chip manufacturers, and different physical and logical configuration of the chips, all while using the same part number (SKU) and product code (EAN/UPC).

For example, I have five kits of Corsair DDR4 Vengeance LPX memory. I have one 16 GB kit with Samsung DRAM in single rank configuration, and another 16 GB kit with SK Hynix DRAM in dual rank configuration. I had both of these in the same system, without knowing that they were different. One of the modules has failed, which I think happened at least a year ago, but I only discovered it recently. Error count approaches 5000 in Memtest86+ after less than 2 full passes (about 2 hours for 32 GB) of default tests.

I have isolated the faulty module, and started a warranty claim with Corsair. They approved Advanced RMA and a new kit from the factory in Taipei landed at my door step yesterday. The new kit uses Samsung chips, and I have learned how to read that without even opening the retail packaging. I have also purchased one new kit with the same part number days before, that I have not opened up yet. It was on sale until 25 October (at the same favorite store I was looking at buying a new HDD from). Technically, I had to purchase the new kit from Corsair too, because they refused to rather reimburse me for the new kit, so I will be looking for a refund from them once I send them the bad kit back. So I have two brand new Corsair 16 GB kits now, both using Samsung chips. But the dual rank SK Hynix based kit has been causing me all sorts of issues.

I hate SK Hynix! I take it very personal when I encounter SK Hynix chips. Why? Because they stink! I just didn’t know I had them in my system. Had I known what I know now, I would have thrown them out. I hold SK Hynix responsible for the death of my Galaxy S7 phone! It used the lesser quality UFS chip, which is a very common single point of failure of all the Galaxy S7 phones (and some others that use these UFS chips).

I know Samsung is not too far off from the garbage can, but SK Hynix is worse than them. For one, Samsung is a garbage company for allowing the use of inferior SK Hynix UFS chips in their own flagship products, such as the Galaxy S series phones. Every Galaxy S7 phone (2016/2017 model) that’s still in use today, can with almost absolute certainty thank its Samsung UFS chip for its longevity. See, the thing is… it’s a lottery! Some users received a Galaxy S7 with SK Hynix UFS and some received an otherwise identical phone model (SM-G930F, the global version) but with Samsung UFS. The ones with SK Hynix UFS chips are dying like flies! If there are any still left in use. The survivors are using Samsung UFS chips. They too can die any time now, but for other reasons. Maybe because of SK Hynix DRAM chips? It’s less common on these phones that the SOC/CPU or the DRAM chip fails for no reason other than age/wear, when there is no water damage or other kinds of misuse or abuse. A sudden death is most commonly caused by bad UFS chip.

These phones are otherwise OK. But there is nothing you can do if the UFS chip fails. And since it’s a monolith with a built in controller, there is no possibility of micro wiring. And all Androids since Android 5 use either full disk encryption or encrypting file system, and hardware based encryption even, without decryption key known to you as its owner (i.e. you don’t technically own it then!). There is no data you can rescue. It’s Game Over! That’s what happened to me, and many other Galaxy S7 owners I encountered online, who told the same exact story.

SK Hynix chips are of lesser quality than Samsung, be it UFS or DRAM chips. I’m not here to bash them for no reason. I have reasons to say what I say! Very good reasons too, with evidence (for the curious). You better test your backup plan and your rescue strategy if you see SK Hynix anywhere in your computer or in your phone (which you can’t look inside without voiding the warranty of course, they made sure of that).

Corsair supposedly uses both Samsung, SK Hynix, and Micron chips in their RAM products. But I have seen many Corsair RAM kits over the years, and I have yet to encounter Corsair modules with Micron chips. Maybe those are only reserved for USA market? Since Micron is a US company. I would love to do some testing on those. I believe they make good quality components. Unlike this SK Hynix garbage.

What’s worse… I ran Memtest86+ on another computer, which also uses the same Corsair RAM kit, a single kit of 16 GB. After one pass (about 30 minutes for 16 GB), it found 1 error, and after another half pass (15 minutes), it found 1 more error. So the error seems to be somewhere along the 8 - 16 GB range. I stopped the test at that point. I checked the manufacturer and sure enough it was SK Hynix. Again!! So I have one more kit I will be replacing on warranty with Corsair. (I just hope they don’t accuse me of being a fraudster.)

Note that these kits are no more than 3 to 4 years old, and they were not overclocked, running at native 3200 MHz or just about there, and they were not abused in any way. Just used for normal computer use. I don’t do “gaming”. I stopped playing video games and computer games when I turned 17 or 18, and took up other interests like music. So there is zero chance that these RAM modules with “lifetime warranty” were hammered to death by my usage patterns. They are just bad quality products! That’s it. And it’s a lottery! A silicon lottery! Samsung doesn’t care what they put inside, but they have no shame in asking for full premium price, no matter if you’re getting a rotten egg while your friend is getting a pretty Easter egg. I may not game anymore, but I didn’t know I was a gambler until I discovered that I was part of this big silicon lottery.

So this is what the discussion of WD hard drives and their WWN numbers and labels is reminding me of. You don’t necessarily get what you pay for… you get… something. Something unknown to you. Unless you open it up and look inside, and learn to read between the lines, the fine print, and extract information to gain insight about it. And that’s a shame.

Is there some other kind of test I can do to try and pin point the source of that noise? It always seems to happen only when I do a binary comparison of a bunch of files in Beyond Compare, and only on one of the drives, but not on the other drive that’s otherwise identical (with reservation for any hidden differences). Can I do some kind of mechanical testing? To see how the arm moves? And if it causes these noises in certain situations? Sequential read is OK on both.

The Ultrastar brand used to belong to HGST? So since WD has acquired HGST they are now using this brand? Is this the very high end HDD products from WD now (old HGST)? I’m not building a server, so a regular WD Gold will do I think. But I understand it’s tricky to know whether it’s actually WD or HGST. Similar story to how Corsair uses both Micron (haven’t seen one yet), Samsung and SK Hynix chips in their RAM kits. You can’t know what you’ll get in the box before you make a purchase, at very least, or learn how to read the codes/labels.

How many platters and heads are there in these drives? Does this still matter for performance? I looked at the data sheet for WD Gold and WD1005FBYZ specifically, but found no such information. I know they used to print that in the data sheet when I got my WD Black drives.

They don’t print that anymore? The less we know the better, eh? Makes us sleep better at night? :wink:

When do we start to care if it’s a 512n or 512e drive? I know it’s the sector size. But I’m not sure what it means or how this is relevant. Something to do with LBA translation and file systems in use? I have not looked it up yet, but I think “512n” means “512 byte native”. The physical sector is then 512 bytes? What’s the “e” then? I will look this up. But is this something a regular computer user will benefit from paying attention to when building a new PC? Or is this more of a topic for the big enterprise world?

512n = native windows operating system support up to 2TB.
512n + 4TB this is incompatible with Win native support.
512e + 512n 4TB = exclusive use as storage media.

n = native – logical / physical sector size is 512B / 512B
e = emulated – logical / physical sector size is 512B / 4KiB

It doesn’t matter if the drive is 512n or 512e. All operating systems will see a 512-byte sector size. However, in the 512e case, the physical sector size is 4096 bytes, so the OS will need to align the partitions on 4KB boundaries for performance reasons.

The number of platters is usually 4 or more for the high capacity models, and most are helium rather than air drives. Helium models run cooler and quieter. You can see the number of heads by running HD Tune:

How to determine number of heads using HD Tune

Normally there would be 2 heads per platter.

Another way to find the numbers is to plug your serial number into WD’s online warranty checker:

https://support-en.wd.com/app/warrantystatusweb

Serial Number - WCC6M3ZAA0FS
Model Number - WD1005FBYZ-01YCBB3

Description

 internal family name - RAINIER
 rotation rate (RPM) - 7200
 cache - 128M
 interface speed - SATA3 6GB/S
 capacity - 1.0 TB
 number of heads - 4HD   <-----------
 usage - RE (RAID EDITION) S

As for Gold drives, you just need to be aware the most are HGST HDDs underneath, especially in the large capacities. Also, WD’s earlier “5400 RPM class” models actually spun at 7200 RPM, so you never really know what you are getting.

All nonsense.

I did a quick search on Google and confirmed from this Reddit post that “n” indeed means native, and I learned that “e” means emulated: 512n vs 512e/4kn HDD Dilemma. I then remembered that I read about Advanced Format many, many years ago. So “Advanced Format” is basically an umbrella term for all these things. So I am somewhat familiar to the concept, I have been exposed to it before, and that’s a great for learning new things.

This comment sums it up nicely:

Disclaimer, I’m not 100% sure either. But as I understand it, 512n is the old version where n stands for native.

512e is 512 emulated, so old OS’s or hardware can keep using newer drives which are usually 4k native (4kn) without having to do a bunch of updates.

Seagate only makes em in 512e and 4k because if you need 512, 512e does the job.

I also found these ramblings very interesting:

It is mainly compatibility issues especially OS compatibility, USB bridge. You know, people have been using Windows and USB for days. Additional note: I used to try asking one 4Kn usb bridge, the consideration just like buying one new computer! This statement is now in history after using Orico VL716-Q4 USB-SATA bridge (3159U3) , problem solved, no frills doesn’t mean low quality, 25USD apiece, including delivery. The question is how to use that. I have been using post 2010s rig for days, OS is new , linux 4.X . In theory, except USB connectors, no further issues. (There are only few models such as VL715, VL716 , can handle 4Kn with properly set, Really depends on who sell them, It looks like lottery. ) At last, WD , Seagate and Toshiba have left a set of instructions for activating 4Kn hdd mode. But only effective for newer models, there are some steps which are tricky. I am not sure there are some old models benefit from these instructions. I just tested WD80EFZX ,works fine, which is 2016 model. Of course, WD says WD RED is not effective with wdckit. Well, just like firewall as the HDD is ready to be scrapped so just give that a try, I pay what I have to. It is revealed The model is a HGST variant so the switching mode is successful, flawless. It is said, before deploy on storage array such as NAS (You are warned NAS only buy you a little more time! ), Set mode first, If not sure, just use as is as default is 512e, for saving from most trouble as there are people have been using legacy stuff for days.

It’s funny to see that I am not alone to think of these products as a lottery! And that we should only pay what we have to – or as I phrased it, “you don’t necessarily get what you pay for”. What is the chance that I should find someone expressing the same ideas or ideals within the same day, on something as obscure and unpolitical topic like 512n vs. 512e? I think the universe is trying to tell me something…

512n = native windows operating system support up to 2TB.

Are you saying that Windows OS only supports 512n and can only support disk or volume sizes of no more than 2 TB?

512n + 4TB this is incompatible with Win native support.

I’m also not sure what you’re saying here. Windows supports 4 TB volume sizes with 512n sectors? This would contradict the first statement (assuming I understood the meaning).

512e + 512n 4TB = exclusive use as storage media.

What do you mean by exclusive and storage media? In what sense? You mean “storage media” as in “hard drive” or something else, like use case for a hard drive?

But Windows does support 512n and also 4Kn sectors. Of course, this depends on what Windows OS you’re referring to. Just like Linux didn’t support 4Kn sectors in 1992, neither did Windows. This didn’t exist as an idea back then. In fact, Advanced Format was standardized in 2010, but the idea of using more than 512 bytes per sector dates back to 1998.

The use of long data sectors was suggested in 1998 in a technical paper issued by the National Storage Industry Consortium (NSIC) calling attention to the conflict between continuing increases in areal density and the traditional 512-byte-per-sector format used in hard disk drives.

Starting with Windows 8, you can use 4Kn drives with Windows. It does have native support for this. It’s in the same article on Advanced Format on Wikipedia.

Readiness of the support for 4 KB logical sectors within operating systems differs among their types, vendors and versions. For example, Microsoft Windows supports 4K native drives since Windows 8 and Windows Server 2012 (both released in 2012) in UEFI. 4K native drives may work on older operating systems such as Windows 7, but cannot be used as boot drive.

As for 512e, that’s just the flip side of 4Kn, is it not? I honestly haven’t read that much into the article (because implementation details don’t interest me). But it’s only logical when you think about it – 512e is to 4Kn what CSM is to UEFI. It’s the same kind of relation; one is emulation mode while the other is real mode.

In regards to volume size, according to Wikipedia, NTFS can support a volume size of up to 256 TB in its Windows 10 version 1703 (and Windows Server 2016) and earlier implementations. Starting with NTFS implementation in Windows 10 version 1709 (and Windows Server 2019), this was increased to 8 PB.

So what are you talking about when you say things like “512n = native windows operating system support up to 2TB”?

Some newer models can be converted between 512e and 4Kn via “FastFormat”.

https://www.seagate.com/files/www-content/product-content/enterprise-performance-savvio-fam/enterprise-performance-15k-hdd/_cross-product/_shared/doc/seagate-fast-format-white-paper-04tp699-1-1701us.pdf

Unfortunately, WD’s warranty checker didn’t find my hard drive. “No results found.” Why don’t you WD? So that didn’t work. I also checked the data sheet for it, as available from the link below. But no word there either.

But I see you found a very peculiar way of determining the number of heads. That is very interesting! I didn’t read the original article in full, I only read the part about using HD Tune Pro to figure out the number of heads. And I can clearly see the pattern of 6 different steps on the graph, in case of that Hitachi drive. But I’m not 100% sure how this works, and I have seen from other examples that the pattern is not always as clear as seen in that article.

Like asking a gypsy lady to read my palm… can you read my heads too?

The noisy:

The quite:

Is this 2, 3 or 4 heads? These are quite different pictures! What’s going on here? Why is the first graph all over the place?

A “butterfly test” will perform patterned seeks that should produce the most noise. I believe this option exists in HddScan and HD Sentinel, but I don’t know about Victoria.

Thanks! I will give it a try. I’m downloading it right now. Meanwhile, I did a random access test in HD Tune Pro and found that the noisy drive sounded more sharp, like a coffee grinder. Even though the performance results are very similar. But it didn’t have that rhythmic, and almost melodic quality to it as in my recorded audio sample. Nonetheless, here they are.

The noisy:

The quite:

It looks like 4 heads to me. Your noisy drive appears to be stuttering on head #2.

BTW, I couldn’t find a drive in Google Images that WD’s warranty checker was happy with. Strange …

1 Like

Thank you! I really didn’t see that at first, the difference in height was only so small.

But I think I got the hang of this now:

The graph is more stable for the second hard drive, so it’s easier to see the pattern. But I still wonder why the graph for the noisy drive looks like an ECG. Although I shouldn’t use that term to avoid more bad luck. But I can’t think of anything else to compare it to. Just look at those nails in the graph. What is that telling us? Does it say anything about actuator arm movement? I wonder.

I just noticed in HD Tune Pro that the checkbox for the Automatic Acoustic Management (AAM) feature is unchecked for the noisy drive.

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But for the other drive, it’s checked.

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The noisy drive is also said to follow the SATA 3 standard.

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While the other drive is not more than SATA 2.6.

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But as far as I remember they were both sold as SATA 3 drives.

When I view the AAM settings, it’s set to 0 for the noisy drive and I can’t enable it.

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But for the other drive, it’s enabled, and it’s set to 254. On a scale from 128 (low noise) to 254 (high performance), with the reported default being 128. Why is it set to 254 if the default is 128? I have no idea. I have never ever changed any of this, not knowingly anyway.

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It’s not possible to set it to anything between 128 and 254. So it’s really just a flip switch from one extreme (low noise) to the other (high performance).

At 254, the average access time is 13.4 ms.

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At 128, the average access time increases to 18.2 ms, but the drive becomes much more quite, almost inaudible.

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By disabling AAM (applied with Set button), the value jumps to 254.

I think this is a great idea for a feature! :+1: The only problem is… the drive that has this doesn’t need it… and the drive that does need it… it doesn’t have it!? What the hell? :astonished:

Why all these differences? Is there a firmware update available that will bring the AAM feature to both drives? Current firmware on both drives is 05.01D05.

Does the change to the AAM setting survive a power cycle?

If by power cycle you mean a simple reboot, then yes, setting AAM to low (128) sticks (on the other drive). Fast Startup in Windows is disabled, so it was a proper reboot. But I have not done a full power cycle, i.e. mechanical off and on.

Something odd is going on, but I don’t understand what it is. However, Victoria hasn’t found any slow sectors, and SMART is clean.

If the AAM changes stick after power off and on, then it might be worth pursuing. However, I would prefer to do this at hddoracle.com (because I have an “invasive” method in mind).

I just finished doing a binary comparison of two folders containing 62 files on the noisy drive, with each folder containing 92.4 GB (across the 62 files) and having no subfolders (same level / leafs). So it was 184.8 GB worth of data in total, in the two folders. This took 4 hours and 57 minutes to finish, at a read speed of 10 to 12 MB/s and peaks at about 15 MB/s.

I can’t have it this slow. No matter what the different tests say. I can stand the noise, but not a reading speed this slow. So I’m going to buy a new hard drive. I had to use this one this time, because I didn’t have a spare that’s not filled up already, and I had to do this binary comparison.

What drive do you recommend? I mentioned having WD Red Plus 4 TB (WD40EFPX) and WD Gold 1 TB (WD1005FBYZ) in stock at my favorite computer store. The 4 TB hard drive gives me more value by having more capacity. But why should I get a Gold drive instead of a Red Plus? They are both CMR drives. What’s wrong with using a NAS drive like WD Red Plus in a desktop computer? If this is by some means “wrong”, then so is using a WD Gold enterprise drive in a desktop computer. Is it not?

In general, the overall “problem”, for me personally, seems to be that… the world has moved to high capacity hard drives, and it’s asking for more. Whether I like it or not, and whether I need that or not! I mean some of the WD drives I looked at start at 8 TB minimum. The Toshiba MG09 series starts at 14 TB, or at least that’s what I can get at my computer store, and it goes up to 22 TB.

They are all more or less meant to be used in either a NAS server with 4 or more drives, or in a traditional server. So what do the techies (prosumers/enthusiasts) like myself buy these days? I wonder. I’m out of touch on this topic. Does anyone use a mechanical hard drive for storage in a desktop computer anymore? That’s the question!

I really have no need for crazy high capacity like 22 TB, or even as “little” as 8 TB. So what do I turn to? WD Black? But they cost more for less of everything. I already have M.2 NVMe and SATA SSDs that can beat the WD Black mechanical drives in performance, and equal them in capacity. What’s more, I don’t trust SSDs. They are indeed fast, but not for long unfortunately. They wear out prematurely and all too fast, and I find them unreliable for long term storage. They are unpredictable and suffer from Write Cliff and other issues. I think what I need is what the storage industry calls “nearline” storage. That’s where I think a mechanical hard drive is a good fit. Not as a boot drive, but as a storage drive.