Be patient, people!

I read this topic and wanted to say that despite some intial problems i am happy with WD TV Live. Very good Audio ( 5.1 on my Home theatre receiver)  as well as Stereo on an old Trinitron Sony TV concurrently as well as 1080i Video thru component to Projector and Composite to TV.

I spent a month checking alternatives ( NMT etc) and found that the quality was less then what I wanted  and more then 50% of the sample content I threw at them did not play. WD TV LIve plays 95% of my content. A mixture of LaserDISC transcoded to AVI, DVD covering English and Hindi (Bollywood) Movies and TV Series mainly BBC.  5.1 sound was most important for me.

I am using in India and mostly miss DVD Menu. Currently have encoded some DVD to MKV and that works superbly with Chapter support and FF and skipping.

The Firmware update fiasco is really trooubling and hope WD get thier act togather. I will wait for some time before upgrading to 1.01.17

Yes, WDC should have tested the firmware thoroughly before releasing it.  More about that below. There are currently a ton of new media players entering the market and by years end there are expect to be over 50 to choose from. The majority of these are going to use the same chipset that is in the Live .  

There are two ways of releasing devices like this. One is to use the default SDK that the company selling the chipset, in this case Sigma Designs , provides and make a product that is just a copy of the SDK. The second way is to customize the software for your users making your product unique. It seems that WDC has chosen the first option as everything in the box is stock SDK except some interface changes. I don’t even know if WDC has a team of programmers themselves or if they are farming it out to another company. 

The  connector on the board marked CN4 is a serial port for diagnostic and debug use.  You can connect to it with a pc serial port if you use something like a max232 chip or usb to serial cable. The 4 pins are gnd, tx,rx,+V , not in that order . 

The board runs linux so most of what is used is GPL code. There is some proprietary code but doing things like adding torrent clients doesn’t require you to use any of that, it is mostly for the av functions.  If you know linux and want to give it a try there are links in this thread to the custom  firmware.  

I’m waiting to see if WDC commits to the product fully or decides to just release a WDTV Live Version 3 .

That’s very interesting! I think that other companies won’t do it much better. Every software matures at the customer and WD is obviously some steps ahead.

Do you know if there is already a community for something like XBMC on WD-TV-Live? I may be wrong but B-RAD seems to be a one-man-show, isn’t it? There could be much more possible if several people work together in such projects.

Thomas

A huge part of the problem is Sigma Designs . Sigma does not make the SDK open to the public and have implemented a lot of security measures in hardware , so it really takes a lot of time to do custom changes.  XBMC will likely never run on the WDTV because without access to the SDK we do not have the tools to use the hardware fully.  Brad is  the only one releasing firmware and there are people trying to add more features. The thing is that with the SDK not being available people have to work around those limitations and when new hardware starts appearing later this year people are likely to jump to it if it offers those features already.   When that happens projects like customizing the WDTV tend to fade away.   If there were not any new players coming out then there would be time for the WDTV to build a larger community, but with so many players coming out I don’t think it will happen.

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Good point about new hardware popping up faster than software/firmware has a chance to mature for the current generation.

I can not believe you are saying “Be Patient”!!!

This is a $149 [text deleted]  that doesn’t do what it is advertised to do, and won’t do what we have been led to believe it should do in the past, by using the WDTV HD (Mk1).  I am speaking of old functionality that was stripped out in current firmware, such as USB Hub support, ISO support, the breaking of MP4 support (et cetera).  If you expect us monkeys to shell out a hundred and fifty bucks for a shiny black piece of plastic, at least make it do what it says on the box.  If you can’t do that, try government contract work… (however, keep in mind that you will need to learn to test before distributing your projects, even in gov’t work).

They can’t even get MKV files to play, thumbnails or countless other things to work, if you connect a drive by any other means than USB, then they take USB HUB support away, so you have to plug/unplug/plug whenever you want to select something.  Stupid.  Monumentally stupid.  My people will sing songs for generations to come of WD’s stupidity.

“Western Digital.  Who needs testing?  We’ll just fix it with a firmware update.”   <— new sales slogan…  Genius ain’t it?

I hope your stock plummits.  [text deleted] 

CHAIR!!!

http://community.wdc.com/t5/WD-TV-Live-General/Related-Dilbert-Comic-Strip/m-p/6021

This is my first post on this forum, and I decided this thread is as good as any to vent my frustrations. Should we still be patient? I bought this thing months back when it first came out. I was pretty excited about it cause it was the first media device I found to do truely flawless streaming of 1080p movies over the network. I’ll give them that. Now that I’ve bought one and convinced at least 5 other people to buy it, WD has done NOTHING to improve it. Seriously, they’ve released a few updates. A few fixed some major bugs it had, one broke more than it fixed, and one was a fix to a broken firmware.

People were saying to wait for CES… well, CES came and went, lots of media set top boxes have been announced, and the verdict? WD TV Live is going to look like a piece of junk when they come out. Popbox, Boxee Box, and more are going to be coming out by March and at that point I will very likely be switching over to one of those. The interface and features (including search and on some qwerty keyboards on the remote) of those new devices are a million times better than the WD TV Live and have way more functionality for around the same price. I’m really surprised WD hasn’t done anything to prevent their inevitable bleeding of customers. I really hope for the sake of WD and the WD Community, there’s a plan in the next month or so because my WD is going on ebay soon.

schnoid wrote:

Popbox, Boxee Box, and more are going to be coming out by March and at that point I will very likely be switching over to one of those. The interface and features (including search and on some qwerty keyboards on the remote) of those new devices are a million times better than the WD TV Live and have way more functionality for around the same price. I’m really surprised WD hasn’t done anything to prevent their inevitable bleeding of customers. I really hope for the sake of WD and the WD Community, there’s a plan in the next month or so because my WD is going on ebay soon.

This is WD’s biggest problem; unless they resolve all the major firmware bugs / issues before the Popbox / Boxee Box et al come out, they will not be able to sell any new WD TV Live units because eBay will be flooded with cheap 2nd hand units from dissatisfied existing users dumping their Lives for better alternatives.

WD need to be more active in acknowledging the product’s failings and reassuring customers that they’re working on fixes.  Auto-assigning Ideas Exchange posts with ‘acknowledged’ status just doesn’t cut it.

Right now we have absolutely NO IDEA what issues WD is working on, nor when the next firmware will be out.

They’re a huge company with huge resources and they can’t do something that many smaller companies have no trouble accomplishing. Very hard to be patient when you have no idea what you’re being patient for.  Maybe another update manager update in a month, if we’re lucky? :expressionless:

They don’t acknowledge the problems and instead pretend that this unit is OK by quoting reviews.

http://wdtvlive.com/blog/2010/01/20/the-latest-buzz-on-wd-tv-live-player/

Unfortunately this is pretty common in the hardware market. Companies like WD who are primarily based in one market come out with a new product line that isn’t their usual expertise. I am guessing the idea to do a media player was not one that WD came up with themselves. Usually how this happens is someone who already has a product ready to ship approaches someone like WD telling them how the product they have will boost sales for the company for products they already sell.

I think the WDTV Live is the same product already sold by Alpha Networks. The case and menu have been customized for WDC but the rest  of the hardware is the same. In fact if you use the customized firmware to look at the files in the WDTV Live box ,the interface and menus are marked as copyright alpha networks.  The only place that WD is mentioned is in what the user would view, everthing else , copyrights and code are listed as alpha networks or sigma designs.

http://www.alphanetworks.com/_english/01_product/01_detail.php?pid=15&ffid=26&appid=64

How much has changed between the two version only WDC knows. But I am willing to bet that WDC does not have their own design team doing firmware but instead have contracted out to someone.  Lesson learned. Next time when buying a media player, do not go with a company doing one as a new product line, go with one that has released previous boxes and it is their primary business.

The same thing has happened with people who went with Asus and the Oplay. It is just an addon to their product line and not their primary focus so it gets little attention.

If you want the WDTV Live to work like it should have then get the custom firmware.

I admittedly have not tried the custom firmware, but from what I can tell it doesn’t solve most of the problems I have with the WD TV Live. Lack of features like search, imdb data display, and playlist support, along with an interface that is very not exciting are issues that have not been solved. If WD was smart they’d at least open up their development environment so other developers can tweak the firmware the way they want. At this point everything is just hacked at until something works. Boxee box and some other media players at least allow “apps” to add on functionality. WD doesn’t even allow that. What bothers me the most is that WD TV Live custom firmware has less functionality than the original WD TV custom firmware. The only thing missing is a network adaptor and that can be added on.

The Sigma Designs copyright is the due to the on-board SoC, it is proprietary hardware around the microcontroller.  If WD were to spin a chip with the same capabilities, it would probably be way worse than Sigma as it is not WD’s specialty, nor does WD have a history of evolution of the hardware.

As for Alpha Networks, well, the main package is Linux.  Alpha Designs changed or added to the code so they must contribute the changes to the community.  For all we know Sigma Designs ported embedded Linux to their hardware for a reference design and Alpha Designs was an early adopter, developing OEM hardware, not necessarily this hardware.

The reason so many boxes look alike is that they all started with the Sigma Designs reference design, as it had the most feature rich foundation for what they wanted to do.  Then extra features were added by each company to differentiate the product from all others based on their own market research.

Yes, they could have contracted out the design as well, specifying that they needed something that does x and y.

Time to market is critical.  If you expect or think that other companies spin their hardware from scratch, you are grossly mistaken.   Most designs of any complexity are based on reference designs from the core hardware vendor.

Asus, WD, et. al. are trying to get a segment of the market.  For WD it complements their storage products, for ASUS, it complements their PC’s, etc. .  For Alpha Designs, they may have decided to design a box that would be rebranded, not necessarily by WD and Asus.

If all these boxes were made from Alpha Networks I’d expect more similar and more mature features, seeing Alpha Networks specializes in that market.

Sometimes doing the OEM thing is cost-prohibitive, especially when profit margins are small due to competition and possible market saturation.  You can look at the hardware and say it costs 30%-50% of the sticker price, but then there is development cost, packaging, support, etc. that slowly eat away the profit margins.

Purchasing from an OEM with customization of the software/hardware can have higher up-front costs, which push ROI too far into the future, with short product generation life, it can be a total loss.    Spinning the product from a reference design can be much cheaper in the short run.

Companies can’t survive if a few products are their primary products, especially when competing with larger companies like WD and Asus. 

Again, if Alpha Designs is OEMing the product, there is still much the add on to the product due to the limited horsepower and flash space in the product.  It can’t be a jack-of-all-trades from them, you have a limited number of features that can be added in the firmware before you run out of space or horsepower.  The extra features cost extra.  Even if they don’t charge up-front for the extras, feature cost amortization within the first couple of years can lower profit margins to unacceptably low levels. 

When developing the product, it’s a good to have a budget on upgrades, etc.   Bug fixes should be included in the price tag, but extra features are dictated by how may units are sold.  If the product does not hit certain sales numbers, management has to make tough decisions, to walk a fine line between investing more with smaller return or alienating too many customers.  If they can determine that a feature will sell more, then it becomes easier to budget for that feature.  If it’s only existing customers that are asking for the world, then it’s a loosing proposition.

If it was only that easy.

WD doesn’t have to make their own chips to make a good product. They do need to be committed to the product  though and I think they have shown so far that they are not. The OS is linux but all the other stuff is proprietary and will never be released to the community.  GPL does nothing for embedded hardware as they leave out the things that would benefit users the most. Download the WDTV Live GPL code, it is on this site. You will find nothing about the interface, how to interact it with, how things like youtube or pandora were done, or anything else. You get a stock linux kernel and the mips port. Nothing more.

Sigma makes a reference design  and Alpha Networks copied that and all it seems that WD has done is copy that design as minimally as possible. That is a poor product when any company does that because it shows a lack of dedication and gives only what is needed to get the product to market and nothing more. Good if you want quick cash, bad if you want long term customers. I have worked on embedded hardware for over 10 years and would never be associated with such a product. To me it is a similar to plagarism.

The limitations of the WDTV Live has nothing to do with limited storage or memory. They only used about 40% of the storage on the device and less than half the ram.  A lot of us have been running them with things like torrent clients, nzb clients, web servers . Console apps are fine but adding anything more is next to impossible due to the proprietary code, we can’t even make it as good as the last version of the player. The limitations are due to the lack of WD to commit to the product.  The more I examine it the more I see where it was a rush to market , quick cash grab.  Things that were left out like ESATA make no sense whatsoever. The  chipset has the support built -in and even looks for SATA drives every time it boots, guess it took too much time to even comment out those lines in the kernel,  that is how generic it is.  Adding an ESATA socket would have only helped WD business sales of external drives. The fact that something like that was left out shows that someone else was calling the shots on the design.

Ever hook the box up to a media server like tversity ? Notice it identifies the box as DSM-750. Puzzled me at first till I saw the firmware code in the pnp server areas referring to DSM-750. Searched and guess what , DSM-750 is a box made by dlink for media playback using the sigma chipset.

http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=DSM-750

All those commented lines in code about media center extender and internal wifi , rhapsody support, started to make sense. At least dlink did improve on the reference design and try to make it their own product.

I use my WDTV Live to play local media, online media, forget it unless all you want is youtube.  It has made me decide to stay clear of WD products in the future by showing me that they have decided to be a rebrander rather than a designer and manufacturer. If I had known it was a  product they were just  slapping  their name on to make a quick sale  then I can buy from a lot cheaper manufacturers.

Looking around this product really has been rebranded , with all the companies using it you would think they could come out with some really great firmware. I guess they all get it from the same source.

http://netgear.com/Products/Entertainment/DigitalMediaPlayers/EVA2000.aspx

Look at the remote in the picture, look familiar ?

It sells for $85 on newegg and comes with a discount for playon and other services. Now I do feel cheated.

ptricks wrote:

 

Ever hook the box up to a media server like tversity ? Notice it identifies the box as DSM-750. Puzzled me at first till I saw the firmware code in the pnp server areas referring to DSM-750. Searched and guess what , DSM-750 is a box made by dlink for media playback using the sigma chipset.

http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=DSM-750

 

All those commented lines in code about media center extender and internal wifi , rhapsody support, started to make sense. At least dlink did improve on the reference design and try to make it their own product.

 

 

 

Two points. Notice the price of this unit ($290 from D-Link) plus this also had a lot of problems at launch .

http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2008/04/19/review-a-weekend-wit.html

I don’t know why  tversity wrongly identifies it. I am running both Twonky and Jamcast servers and they both recognise it correctly.

ptricks wrote:

Looking around this product really has been rebranded , with all the companies using it you would think they could come out with some really great firmware. I guess they all get it from the same source.

 

http://netgear.com/Products/Entertainment/DigitalMediaPlayers/EVA2000.aspx

Look at the remote in the picture, look familiar ?

 

 

It sells for $85 on newegg and comes with a discount for playon and other services. Now I do feel cheated.

 

 

Don’t feel too bad this unit also has its limitations.

At a touch under £100 it costs notably more than the  Asus O!Play HDP-R1 and  Western Digital WD TV but unlike those devices, it will barely even play 720p content (MPEG-2 is the only codec the player will decode at that resolution), let alone 1080p videos."

http://www.trustedreviews.com/multimedia/review/2009/10/21/Netgear-EVA2000-Digital-Entertainer-Live/p1

http://www.digitaltrends.com/product-reviews/networking-and-wi-fi-reviews/media-streamers-reviews/netgear-eva2000-digital-entertainer-live-review/

If you are talking about B-Rad, don’t bother with it - the firmware does not fix any problems or add features that people want - it is a firmware meant for very advanced users that require specific features, 99% of the users will never need to use, so don’t bother…

The built-in SMP revision on this unit is capable of much more - it’s all abotu the firmware, you can set registers and internal adjustments (such as image position, size, filtering options, etc.) internally by firmware.  There is SO MUCH more WD can enable in the firmware.

Yes the chip also supports Y/C and eSATA among other features as well, but adding those would increase the cost of production, multiply this by the amount of units sold - this would increase the price.  That is understandable.  But in terms of firmware they have not done good enough and never will update the firmware.

Every company out there shows a form of incompetence - Look at Creative Labs, they bother to use reivsed, much better chipsets, but their driver uses only 10% at most !    Look at ADS, with their Instant DVD product, and their CirrusLogic chipset, so much could be done with that chipset, they made crappy drivers and abandoned, not listening to ANY suggestions, topped by a RUDE staff and a shill running their forum section… I can go on and on…what use is it to use a quality chipset if you are only going to make use of 4-10% of its power.!

Also - just because 2 units use the same chipset does NOT mean they both have the same quality output.

Think of your firmware like your PC’s BIOS, through the BIOS you set registers for your chipset, some of those registers affect performance…Same for the WD Live vs. other boxes,

In terms of competitor products, they do offer more features, BUT image quality is much lower in comparaison to WD Live  - perhaps because they favor the excessive filtering over a slightly noisier picture but much more sharp.

To me, the latest firmware .17 lacks the features requested BUT the output quality is the best I have seen in ANY product, sure beats the ■■■■ out of the output of the best videocard on your PC !  I never seen so razor sharp images coming from lowbit DivX files before, quite amazing.  Too bad the MPEG2 formats don’t output as clean though as other formats.

Custom firmware has added quite a bit.  So far what is working is remote controls, use what you want to use, not that tiny thing they ship it with. Use it to download torrents while watching video. Run just about anything console that linux can run . And in about two weeks there should be some totally new interfaces coming out with the ability to play sites like itunes.  Someone also started work on Hulu as well. It just takes time and with no source to work off of a lot of reverse engineering.   Really the biggest thing WD could do for its customers is either make a statement that they are fully committed and are going to support the product and listen to users, or announce they are making the sdk open to the community so we can do what needs to be done.  Never happen with Sigma involved, but I can dream.

The only cost to adding eSATA to the box would have been the connector, same price as a USB connector currently. They even brought the traces out from the chip but terminated them with resistors, a few more inches of copper traces and a connector was all that was needed.  The box enumerates it and tries to mount hard drives every time it boots . I’m sure people would have rather had a USB and a eSATA than two USB. 

All SMP8654 chipset devices will have the same exact picture quality. It is impossible for them not to. They all use the native HDMI connections on the chip. Previous chips like the 8634 used a scaler  chip external to the processor, but the 8654 has the scaler internal so there are no differences between between 8654 boards.

The 8654 is a pretty simple chip in terms of playback. Tell it what you want to play and what interface to output it on and it does the rest.  The only real tweaks available are done post processing like color, brightness, sharpness, which WD has strangely not decided to include. There is even volume control support in the chipset and WD chose to ignore that too. 

richUK wrote:

 


 

 

Don’t feel too bad this unit also has its limitations.

 

At a touch under £100 it costs notably more than the  Asus O!Play HDP-R1 and  Western Digital WD TV but unlike those devices, it will barely even play 720p content (MPEG-2 is the only codec the player will decode at that resolution), let alone 1080p videos."

 

http://www.trustedreviews.com/multimedia/review/2009/10/21/Netgear-EVA2000-Digital-Entertainer-Live/p1

 

http://www.digitaltrends.com/product-reviews/networking-and-wi-fi-reviews/media-streamers-reviews/netgear-eva2000-digital-entertainer-live-review/

Yeah I didn’t have time to fully check out the netgear device until today. The remote  has to be the same manufacturer, that is just too similar to be a coincidence.   The netgear device is not the same hardware. I looked at its GPL docs and found out it is an ARM device using ffmpeg for codecs.  So totally different from the Live using hardware codecs and mips. 

The reason that tversity identifies the box as DSM-750 is because that is what the ID of the box says in the DLNA string. They put WDC in all the areas except that one and the tversity picked up on it for some reason. It is also in the firmware several times.  We might as well face it, we got a box that is a re-branded for WDC media player. I don’t expect WDC to do much in the coming weeks except passify users till we fade away. Or worse, they could launch and entirely new product.